Yea and amen. I think it is, specifically, the Holy Spirit. Everytime I see a congregation resist the movement of Spirit, especially on stupid stuff they could easily do, I quietly day to myself... yeah, you're done.
I've been wondering this myself, too. I don't have any answers. There's one church that is not shrinking here in the city where I live, and it's congregation are mostly very poor folks and refugees that live in the area. The folks that the church is supposed to welcome and serve. The underbelly of the institutional church's history being exposed to the light of day in recent years adds makes the conversation a lot more grave, too. I've wondered if Gd is allowing the institution to fall so that something new can grow in its place.
Yes, the Christian church is slowly dying. It’s dying as more and more questions come to the understanding that there is no God in our universe looking over us and doing anything for us or against us. God was invented by humans in ancient times when they didn’t understand the universe they were living in. Our understanding of the universe and evolution and science and chemistry and physics has removed the need for a God or for belief in one. Even Bishop John Shelby Spong who wrote many books about Christianity and it’s changing times titled his last book. Unbelievable.
The church can invent itself, but it will be more like a civic club that does good things for the community around it. And there’s nothing wrong with that and they can even follow the teachings of Jesus Buddha and a host of other wisdom preachers from the present and the past . But they will have to acknowledge that when we die we go back where we came from – nowhere.
I’m not ready to write off Gd altogether. Science is, after all, merely one way of observing reality. What we understand of Gd, obviously, evolves over time, from primitive ‘storm gods’ to more contemporary moral and good-of-society understandings. But where you see ‘outmoded’ I see a collective human instinct for Gd, even if we get our definitions wrong every time.
Really depends on what you mean by “the church”. If you mean the congregations in America that meet in the buildings of the principal denominations, then yes, maybe God is letting them die off. If you mean the true body of Christ on earth that is alive and well in Africa, China, and even North Korea, then no, they are not dying off. The mainline American churches are too cluttered with committees and fund raising and raising attendance numbers to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit. Just my opinion.
Natalie Runyon (Raise to Stay author) puts it well: There's a Holy housekeeping going on". People forget that the word of God declares that judgement begins at the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17) and that Jesus is returning for a pure, undivided bride.
I read your great question two different ways... Maybe there's truth to both ways, I dunno for sure, lol. I'm a retired UCC pastor who has served numerous types of local parishes, as a denominational official and "church growth consultant/coach" (fat lot of good that did). I have often wondered if G*d has been pruning the Vine for a long time. But my own increasingly-uber progressive faith has led me to a nontheistic view of G*d, a view which holds that it's the traditional theistic patriarchal unrefined Trinitarin barbaric remote judgmental "God is in Control" and everything happens for a (divine controlled) reason" kind of G*d that is killing the church...or rather, a hardened unchanging faith (that's not really faith at all) in that to of G*d that's really killing the Church. I guess the net result is the same, either way.
I'm from a very different branch of the tree than you, but I concur. In 2017 a group of us Pentecostal began lengthy prayer sessions in response to several of us independently hearing a message from God that he was "shaking his Church." Synonyms such as pruning, cleansing, etc came up with frequency, along with passages of Scripture "Behold, I am doing a new thing!", Matt 7:21-23, etc.
For over 3 years we prayed and listened, to Holy Spirit affirming that God was reshaping his Church, cutting away that which was harmful and strengthening that which was obedient.
I believe we are in an epochal time, but one much different than most of those who claim Apostolic, Pentecostal, and Evangelical roots.
Everything that isn’t extending love is dying out. Sometimes there’s lots more Christ consciousness outside the church than inside. So then, what does anyone need a church for? Churches should be like mini mobilization centers that take loving actions in their communities. They just give. They’d get members who want to be part of giving.
Isaiah (43:18) told the priests to stop trying to resuscitate the old way, as Brian McLaren eloquently put it in Do I Stay Christian, but instead to look for the new thing that god was doing. But they didn’t listen to Isaiah, so instead Ezra does sends women and children away (presumably to starvation or slavery) in the name of ethnic purity.
Yea and amen. I think it is, specifically, the Holy Spirit. Everytime I see a congregation resist the movement of Spirit, especially on stupid stuff they could easily do, I quietly day to myself... yeah, you're done.
I've been wondering this myself, too. I don't have any answers. There's one church that is not shrinking here in the city where I live, and it's congregation are mostly very poor folks and refugees that live in the area. The folks that the church is supposed to welcome and serve. The underbelly of the institutional church's history being exposed to the light of day in recent years adds makes the conversation a lot more grave, too. I've wondered if Gd is allowing the institution to fall so that something new can grow in its place.
I find this idea provocative and intriguing, and it rings true to me.
it seems like if we keep bashing our heads into a wall, maybe God is trying to tell us to turn around..
This is a very profound question. Thanks for asking it so eloquently.
Yes, the Christian church is slowly dying. It’s dying as more and more questions come to the understanding that there is no God in our universe looking over us and doing anything for us or against us. God was invented by humans in ancient times when they didn’t understand the universe they were living in. Our understanding of the universe and evolution and science and chemistry and physics has removed the need for a God or for belief in one. Even Bishop John Shelby Spong who wrote many books about Christianity and it’s changing times titled his last book. Unbelievable.
The church can invent itself, but it will be more like a civic club that does good things for the community around it. And there’s nothing wrong with that and they can even follow the teachings of Jesus Buddha and a host of other wisdom preachers from the present and the past . But they will have to acknowledge that when we die we go back where we came from – nowhere.
I’m not ready to write off Gd altogether. Science is, after all, merely one way of observing reality. What we understand of Gd, obviously, evolves over time, from primitive ‘storm gods’ to more contemporary moral and good-of-society understandings. But where you see ‘outmoded’ I see a collective human instinct for Gd, even if we get our definitions wrong every time.
I am very excited to see how the body of Christ will evolve, but all I'm seeing so far is dying. How should we Hospice modern Christianity?
Perhaps you are referring to the church in the west. I imagine, instead, that God is watching a slow suicide.
Really depends on what you mean by “the church”. If you mean the congregations in America that meet in the buildings of the principal denominations, then yes, maybe God is letting them die off. If you mean the true body of Christ on earth that is alive and well in Africa, China, and even North Korea, then no, they are not dying off. The mainline American churches are too cluttered with committees and fund raising and raising attendance numbers to recognize the work of the Holy Spirit. Just my opinion.
Natalie Runyon (Raise to Stay author) puts it well: There's a Holy housekeeping going on". People forget that the word of God declares that judgement begins at the house of God (1 Pet. 4:17) and that Jesus is returning for a pure, undivided bride.
I read your great question two different ways... Maybe there's truth to both ways, I dunno for sure, lol. I'm a retired UCC pastor who has served numerous types of local parishes, as a denominational official and "church growth consultant/coach" (fat lot of good that did). I have often wondered if G*d has been pruning the Vine for a long time. But my own increasingly-uber progressive faith has led me to a nontheistic view of G*d, a view which holds that it's the traditional theistic patriarchal unrefined Trinitarin barbaric remote judgmental "God is in Control" and everything happens for a (divine controlled) reason" kind of G*d that is killing the church...or rather, a hardened unchanging faith (that's not really faith at all) in that to of G*d that's really killing the Church. I guess the net result is the same, either way.
I'm from a very different branch of the tree than you, but I concur. In 2017 a group of us Pentecostal began lengthy prayer sessions in response to several of us independently hearing a message from God that he was "shaking his Church." Synonyms such as pruning, cleansing, etc came up with frequency, along with passages of Scripture "Behold, I am doing a new thing!", Matt 7:21-23, etc.
For over 3 years we prayed and listened, to Holy Spirit affirming that God was reshaping his Church, cutting away that which was harmful and strengthening that which was obedient.
I believe we are in an epochal time, but one much different than most of those who claim Apostolic, Pentecostal, and Evangelical roots.
Yup. Agree. The chances are high that God is at work.
Everything that isn’t extending love is dying out. Sometimes there’s lots more Christ consciousness outside the church than inside. So then, what does anyone need a church for? Churches should be like mini mobilization centers that take loving actions in their communities. They just give. They’d get members who want to be part of giving.
Agree, the focus on everything but sacrificing ourselves for the least of these.
Isaiah (43:18) told the priests to stop trying to resuscitate the old way, as Brian McLaren eloquently put it in Do I Stay Christian, but instead to look for the new thing that god was doing. But they didn’t listen to Isaiah, so instead Ezra does sends women and children away (presumably to starvation or slavery) in the name of ethnic purity.